Plague of Strength

First off, tell everyone about yourself.

Pleasure to get to talk with you! My Name is Trevor Kashey, I am a currently a PhD(c) in biochemistry, pursuing my RD and am certified through the International Society of Sports Nutrition with the advanced nutritionist certification. I am currently 22 years old, and received my bachelors degree in biochemistry in my wee teenage years. I also have 2 years of industrial nutraceutical formulation experience.  I have always been huge into science, and when I discovered lifting weights in high school, the two melded pretty quickly. It was amazing to me how many people lacked the most basic nutritional concepts, and I made it my goal to try and educate the best I could. As such, I lecture relatively frequently at local colleges in the areas of supplementation and effective applicable nutrition.

The people who know just enough about nutrition care WAY too much about advanced concepts that don’t even apply to them (why do fat middle aged men care about the osmolality of their intra-workout carbohydrate!?). I try to help moderate both ends.  I did my first bodybuilding competition at 15, my second at 19 (won them both) and then almost immediately transitioned into strongman. I have been in many competitions at the local level and have competed nationally. Most recently, I won the title of Arizona’s Strongest Man in my weight class.

I see you’re a licensed nutritionist, which blows my mind because you’re as hardcore about keto as I am it seems, and sports nutrition and keto generally go together like testicles and napalm.  Which came first- keto or the nutritionist gig?  How’d you get the two to sit in a room together and play nicely without keto running across the room and stabbing conventional dieting conceptions to death and raping its girlfriend?

Ironically, they both came about at the same time. As a scientist, I tend to think of things more pragmatically and thermodynamically (likely to a fault). It may not be the best what (what is?) but I find it the most straightforward and scientifically based. Sports nutrition is kind of a catch-all. I think the reason why keto and sports nutrition seem to be bitter enemies is because of the current lack of scientific studies backing it (from the viewpoint of performance). It’s not that there is any science saying high fat low carbohydrate is BAD. There are just tons of data that suggest high carbohydrate is GOOD. So people take the position while not being completely informed. Not to mention, almost all the damn studies out there are on endurance athletes. Of the studies that do in fact look at high fat, nearly none of them take into account the amount of time it takes for the body to correct it’s chemistry to accommodate the new diet (everyone feels like crap the first 1-2 weeks of cutting their carbs out). OF COURSE performance will decrease… The money is after this transition has occurred.

There is data emerging in this community that is slowly showing otherwise. Also, I’d like to mention I’m not against carbohydrates at all, I’m just NOT against fat. It isn’t my goal to show that tons of fat is better than tons of carbohydrate.

It was merely to show that fat:

1.  Is not as poisonous as people think (with blood work to show it).
2.  Will not destroy a lean physique in high amounts (barring energy balance is maintained).
3. Can provide the energy necessary (when combined with adequate protein) for high intensity strength training.

So to answer your question, I didn’t stop it. I watched and grinned; it’s just energy for christ’s sake. You either use it or you don’t. You can argue the other minutia until you are blue in the face. Total energy content is priority 1, with total protein at number 2.

That’s a hell of a resume at 22.  I noticed you went to Chico State East (I went to U of A and we spent no small amounts of time mocking ASU for being the repository of all of the drunken retards of the West), but you must have burned right through that curriculum.  How’d you manage all that at your age?

I started college courses at around 14 or so while in high school, combined with advanced placement tests, I started at the university (full time) with more than half of my undergraduate already completed. In fact, I was almost booted out of high school my senior year because I was regularly “ditching” school to get to my organic chemistry class early. Combined with overall hatred for bureaucratic nonsense, I forged my way into almost twice the allowed credits. I slithered my way through the cracks unnoticed until my graduating semester. By then all the damage had been done.

ASU definitely has its share of drunken retards. Unfortunately, that’s most of the school’s population that can speak fluent English. I spent most of my time with the 90 pound scientists who eat microwaved fish eyeballs with broccori.

So to answer your question, I didn’t stop it. I watched and grinned. It’s just energy for christ’s sake. You either use it or you don’t. You can argue the other minutia until you are blue in the face. Total energy content is priority 1, with total protein at number 2.

So, how do you train?  I know I have a lot of strongmen who read my stuff, but I rarely have the chance to cover training for strongman- in the couple of contests I have done for fun, I really didn’t alter my training at all.  Wind becomes and issue, but you just nut up.  Rest-pause training with huge weights and low reps seems to translate decently, for me, into strongman.

My programming is actually very simple.
I train in 12-16 week cycles. I train 4 days per week. 5 days per week pre contest.

M: Squat
T:  Overhead
W: Rest
Th: Deadlift
F:  Bench
S:  Rest (events pre-contest)
Su: Rest

• I train 1 heavy compound movement with 3-4 single joint exercises.
• With the accessory moves, I focus on mind-muscle connection, bodybuilding style.
• As the training cycle progresses, I lower my reps. I try to hit a weight PR in the rep range I am currently working in before I switch to the next rep range. I don’t really test my 1 rep maxes at all. At the end of a training cycle I just take a week off and then go back to the grind.
• I ride my bicycle to work and to the gym to train, so I think that also keeps me moderately athletic.
• I don’t feel like it’s terribly beneficial to train events year-round. Unless you really have no idea how to do the event, I find that they only serve as ways to beat you up and cause premature fatigue in a training cycle. It is different when prepping for a specific contest, but most all strongman events are so heavy in the posterior chain that it’ll just stall out your power lifts. Training the events enough to become proficient at them is really all that is needed at the amateur level. Other than that, focusing on static strength (and grip strength) is probably going to prove more useful.

I get my training professionally programmed, so out of respect for my coach I won’t go too much more specific than that, but I think I get the point across.

You use a strength coach?  WHAT?  Explain.

A little over a year ago, I was huge, and I was strong. My mobility was also GARBAGE.

All hell broke loose.

1. I suffered a catastrophic groin tear (which then got infected and went septic).  I spent a long time in the hospital and couldn’t even walk with the help of crutches for weeks. As soon as I was able to roll out of bed and not want to rip the head off of a neonate, I drug my ass back to the gym so I could at least bench press.
2. My high volume bench press ended up causing a pec tear.  So here I am, super gimp. By the time the inflammation on my pec went down enough for me to function, I was able to stand on my own and not want to die, I started overhead pressing.
3. My left shoulder decided to take a dump.  Due to an underactive serratus anterior, and proximal biceps tendon that refused to stay in the groove, my shoulder decided it did not want to stay in the socket when I overhead pressed.

I had to start over.

When I was functional enough to move around (almost) like a modern human, I took on the strength coach Mike Mastell. This man has helped me to improve my mobility drastically, work around and improve weaknesses to prevent reinjury, and made the mechanics of my lifts light-years better than they were before.

Almost a year later, I am tons more athletic, flexible, and stronger, while at a much lighter weight. I still have huge hypertrophic imbalances that we are currently working on to maximize my potential and help prevent reinjury.

I’m not ashamed in the least that I enlisted the help of an expert for my training. The information I gained was invaluable.

That sounds like the worse year of anyone’s life, ever.  You could have contracted Ebola and had a marginally better year.  Hell, you could have discovered you were raped in your sleep and contracted AIDS and would have been less miserable.  Anyway, I won’t dig into your program too deeply as I don’t want to steal from your coach, but I find your comment in re hypertrophic imbalances interesting.  You’re incredibly young to have that many catastrophic injuries, and I think it speaks to a psychotic rant I recently made about why the under-25 crowd is going to kill the sport of powerlifting.  To summarize- they’re insanely dogmatic and close- minded, and seem to think training for hypertrophy (i.e. bodybuilding) is tantamount to powerlifting sacrilege.  Thus, they end up with no shortage of injuries and plateaus they could have avoided if they’d just do hamstring curls on occasion.  You, as I recall, were a bodybuilder first, so how do you think you came all of these imbalances?

I am pretty sure all my imbalances started in high school when I was doing some barbell squats and managed to tweak my psoas. I didn’t know any better and just ignored it. Honestly, I think everything just went downhill from there.

Here is the history of dismemberment: Look close enough, and the order makes sense.
Psoas tweak > pelvic tilt > spine misalignment > shoulder girdle shift > groin tear > pec tear > shoulder subluxations.

This of course did not happen overnight, it was years of acting like a total idiot on top of massive weight and strength gain that caused this.

 I was never really taught how to lift weights by anybody; I just copied older kids on the football team and hoped for the best. Most people get gains no matter how poor their form is when they start initially. I saw that I was improving and never realized I was doing something particularly wrong.

After my second bodybuilding competition, I quickly switched to strongman where I was EASILY the smallest fish in the pond. Where your weight classes are over and under 231… I weighed in at a measly 180 pounds. For my first several contests, I wasn’t even strong enough to move the prescribed weights for the competition, so I spent the entire time trying to play catch up with the big boys. Every competition I entered was just slightly heavier than the previous, never giving me a mental break from sitting back and actually having a rational training program. I was too obsessed with being able to compete at a particular contest and not looking at the big picture.

This is also important to realize the issue of competing TOO regularly. By the end of my first year of strongman I had gained 50 pounds and qualified for nationals; I competed and actually did pretty well! After that, my body pretty much shut down on me. I kept getting heavier and stronger so I just didn’t bother doing routine maintenance. It caught up with me.

You are ripped to fucking shreds.  Run us through a day of eating, if you would, because I know everyone’s dying to know what your diet looks like.

Sure thing! I suppose I’ll just answer your question succinctly instead of trying to give you some pre-meditated answers to questions you may have about it. I will let you know, that I have not always eaten like this, and it has taken me almost a year to get up to this point. It’s an interesting story in itself and has been an ongoing self-experiment since about 11 months ago. I have been increasing my calories EVERY SINGLE WEEK since the inception of this diet.

Here is an off day example:

Meal 1:
(112g) 4 oz fatless meat (chicken breast/turkey breast/white fish/pork tenderloin etc. etc.)
(56g) 2.5 oz nuts (peanuts/almonds/cashews)
(84g) 3 oz green veggies

Meal 2:
(112g) 4 oz fatless meat (chicken breast/turkey breast/white fish/pork tenderloin etc. etc.)
(56g) 2.5 oz nuts (peanuts/almonds/cashews)
(84g) 3 oz green veggies

Meal 3:
(112g) 4 oz fatless meat (chicken breast/turkey breast/white fish/pork tenderloin etc. etc.)
(56g) 2.5 oz nuts (peanuts/almonds/cashews)
(84g) 3 oz green veggies

Meal 4:
(112g) 4 oz fatless meat (chicken breast/turkey breast/white fish/pork tenderloin etc. etc.)
(56g) 2.5 oz nuts (peanuts/almonds/cashews)
(84g) 3 oz green veggies

Meal 5:
6 eggs
(56g) 2 oz sharp cheddar cheese
(84g) 3 oz green veggies
(28g) 1 oz nuts

~3000 calories ~80g carbs ~200g fat ~215g protein

The numbers vary a little depending on meat/nut/veggie choice, but you get the idea. I hit 3000 calories on off days (currently)

Here is an ON day example:

Meal 1:
(112g) 4 oz lean meat
(160g) 2 cups oats

Meal 2:
(112g) 4 oz lean meat
(160g) 2 cups oats

Meal 3: (pre workout)
(112g) 4 oz lean meat
(80g) 1 cup oats

Intra workout:
15g EAA
5g BCAA
50g carbohydrate

Meal 4:
1 scoop whey
7 cups of kids cereal
1 cup almond milk
(170g) pasta
(112g) pasta sauce

Meal 5:
(112g) 4 oz lean meat
(200g) Cornbread (from mix)

~4550 calories ~780 carbs ~80g fat ~220g protein

Again, all these numbers vary a little depending on exact food choices, but this week my goal was to hit 4550 calories for my total energy content on workout days.
I realize I have discrete meals after my workout listed, but the reality is that I just get home from the gym and eat until I pass out.

I see you eat carbs around your training- I don’t because all of lifting is really done in 5 seconds or less.  Muscle glycogen is never touched.  What’s your take on ketogenic dieting for people who train with more time under tension than that?

I think that people may be short-changing themselves by not consuming carbohydrates while training with more time under tension (or just overall higher volume). It has been shown in a controlled setting that consuming carbohydrates before and during resistance training increases peak force output and time to exhaustion (study was done in elite lifters, not old ladies). So even though carbohydrates don’t DIRECTLY lead to increases in skeletal muscle protein synthesis; by lifting more weight for longer periods, I feel you can put yourself into a better position for supercompensation (via neural adaptation, or otherwise). There are other factors involved, but for somebody trying to squeeze every ounce out of their training as humanly possible, allocating some calories for peri-workout carbohydrates won’t hurt. If somebody has a protein intake as massive of yours, what little glycogen you do use will be replenished through gluconeogenesis anyway. Since you have multiple meals before your next training session, you are almost never at a risk of going depleted.

Your protein consumption seems low to the point of near criminality.  What’s the logic behind such a low protein intake?  4oz of lean meat only yields about 25 grams of protein.  I fail to understand the logic behind that.  to give you some idea of how diametrically opposed our diets are, my Apex Predator Diet consists basically of meat on the bone, and is about 45% protein, 50% fat, and 5% carbs.  I essence, I double my bodyweight in protein and then halve that for grams of fat.  Carbs are limited to one or two days a week, capped off by an epic cheat meal for three to four hours one evening.

In short? It’s because there are other foods that contain protein.

It doesn’t have to be meat. Heck, on some days I get well over 150 g protein from (non-soy) plant sources (Nuts/Graints etc). These are NOT insignificant amounts. Just because the general fitness community does not count these foods as protein sources does not mean they don’t contain protein and that your body cannot utilize it (for muscle building OR energy). There seems to be a bastardization of the diabetic exchange used by most these days. 1000’s of calories are unaccounted for in some cases. As your carbohydrate intake increases, the need for protein (as an energy source) decreases. So I believe there is a happy medium between eating protein for maximizing anabolic capacity and consuming carbohydrate to prevent protein from being oxidized as energy and used for anabolic processes.

People can argue the “completeness” of protein all they’d like. It still contains calories, and just because there might a shortage of lysine or cysteine in a particular non-meat protein doesn’t mean the metabolic capabilities are FUBAR. It’s not like the body says “Hey! There is no methionine in there, shit this out undigested!”. Furthermore, a person may gain precious few GRAMS of muscle mass per workout MAYBE (per week more likely). Scarfing an extra 200g protein (daily) will hardly result in a dramatic increase in (lean) mass gain. People hit the asymptote of maximizing anabolic capacity (via protein intake) at a much lower amount than they think. The extra protein will just be used for purposes of general metabolic expenditure, in which case I don’t believe including carbohydrate instead of extra protein would hurt you. I don’t honestly think I’d be bursting through an xxxl shirt (at this bodyfat) if I ate more meat. I am confident I get enough essential amino acids (and more importantly BCAA) from the food choices I make to maximize my anabolic capacity. I’ve attached a more recent picture of me supporting 222 lbs on what some (and by some I mean A TON) people would calculate as around 110 grams of protein daily (meat/dairy sources only).

There are times I eat massive amounts of meat, but this is because I am HUNGRY, NOT because I want to add more muscle mass. I’ll just make isocaloric adjustments as necessary.

Interesting in re the protein consumption.  Given the wildly contradictory scientific evidence and the mountains of anecdotal/historical evidence suggesting that humans have the ability to absorb and utilize high intakes of protein, I err on the side of caution.  Additionally, I may just have low nitrogen retention naturally, but I’ve found that I cannot maintain high bodyweight at lower protein levels.  Whereas your diet is based on calories, mine is based on protein- I double my bodyweight for grams of protein per day, then make that roughly half of my caloric intake.  Thus, I eat about half as many grams of fat as I do grams of protein.  In practice, it ends up being more like 40% protein/60% fat, because I need the calories, but I’m more of a broad strokes than a minutia guy.

I only consume as much protein as I feel I need to maintain a positive nitrogen balance. The rest, as most everyone knows, just gets oxidized as energy. So instead of eating sacrificial protein, I just replace it with other calories instead. I eat more protein if I want, but I keep my intake at roughly 1g per pound. As I raise my calories, it of course goes up, but I don’t make a point to eat massive amounts. My meat servings are in the 4 oz range. I’d also like to mention that I count protein from all sources. That’s another can of worms that tends to make people cringe. Evidently, protein calories don’t count in sources besides meat and dairy in a large percentage of the population. EVERYONE KNOWS  “incomplete” proteins don’t get oxidized for energy at all (yikes). I don’t know why some people think that if a protein source is deficient in something like lysine, it no longer has the capacity to participate in anabolic biochemistry.

Protein is protein, eh?  That’s a surprisingly laissez faire take on something that usually gets people foaming at the mouth.   You eat a surprisingly small amount of calories for a guy who’s 230 lbs.  What’s the logic behind that?  Are you not trying to continue to gain, or are you trying to lean out?

Correct, I am not Keto as much as I am PRO fat. Like I said before, I am just on a mission to prove that fat is not as poisonous as people think. People can argue until they are blue in the face, but as a biochemist I just view it as form of energy. I have regularly used ketogenic style diets in order to drop bodyfat.

Taking into consideration that athletic prowess (not just strength and power) is a priority of mine; I don’t feel that a ketogenic diet (year round) is optimal for my performance.

Currently I am around 220 lbs. Before my catastrophic groin injury I was tipping the scale in the mid 250’s. A combination of depression and not being able to walk deflated me to around 220.
After I was mobile enough to get around I just decided to diet all the way down to 200. I was very lean at this weight. Since I had to start EVERYTHING over (It was so bad that I was keeping track of PR’s on how look it took me to get out of bed). I decided to slowly increase my calories and work my way back up the food chain the RIGHT way. I now maintain a low body fat percentage while adding food every week. I am stronger, healthier, and more athletic than I was at my heaviest weight. The bodybuilding mentality has really made my diet and training extremely productive. I am happy to be able to view this injury as a blessing in disguise.

Picture 1 (October 2012): 255 lbs Pre Injury
Picture 2 (May 2013):       200 lbs (May 2013) Post injury (recovering) and Post diet.
Picture 3 (Feb 2014):        210 lbs On the upswing with the priority of staying lean

I suppose my beard growth is as good of an indicator of chronology as any.

Going back to your training, I forgot to ask- to your training, how many days a week do you train heavy?

Out of the 4 days per week I train:
2 of them are heavy: Squat and overhead
1 moderate: Deadlift (lots of speed work, unilateral work, and volume per unit time)
 
Instead of trying to lift heavier weights all the time, I just try and squeeze in extra sets and/or extra reps within a time limit and set PR’s that way. Eventually weights go up, but right now squat is my priority lower body lift due to having (previously) inactivated glutes and hamstrings. I have footballs for spinal erectors and concaved craters for glutes. Now that my mechanics and muscle activation have improved, everything is starting to explode up in weight and speed. Most of the 10 pounds I put on all went to my glutes and hamstrings. Squat was terribly behind because I could not perform it correctly, It was ALL lower back.

Anything you want to impart to everyone in regards to avoiding muscular imbalances?

1. STAY MOBILE
2. Maintain good mind muscle connection
3. DON’T work through injuries.  It impresses nobody. Work AROUND them.
4. Make sure that your lifts have adequate form for your body type. There are multiple correct ways to perform all lifts, make sure you find the variation that suits your body the best.
5. Train every muscle. Every one. No matter what sport you are in. Not to mention, there is nothing shameful about having a symmetrical physique.

In any event, what’s on the horizon for you?  you look to be in contest ready shape, and I’m guessing the sub-200 strongman weightclass is going to be out of reach for you soon.  Any upcoming competitions?

I am zoning in on several pro-qualifier competitions this year for strongman. Since there is no pro class for 200 (and nor am I naturally that light), I have been focusing on adding lean mass so I don’t have to embarrass my fellow strongmen by beating them whilst 25 pounds under the weight limit (yeah, right).

Staying as lean as possible while adding beef has been the goal, I think I am heading in the right direction, regardless of how the scale changes. I have always been a fat kid; so keeping my body fat low has been my top priority, above strength even. As Dan Green says (paraphrased) “competing without abs kicks you up a weight class unnecessarily”.
At my height, I will need to accrue considerably more lean mass to be competitive in bodybuilding (at higher levels). Until such time, I will be strength training for purposes of powerlifting and strongman. But EATING to gain muscle and keep fat down.

You’re a crossover athlete. What do you think allowed you to easily transition from sport to sport? Do you have any recommendations for guys going from bodybuilding to strongman, strongman to bodybuilding, or either to or from powerlifting?

For bodybuilding at the local level, it’s all about conditioning. I think anyone can be a successful bodybuilder at the state level so long as they eat like one. I think the bodybuilding lifestyle can improve performance in ANY of the strength sports. Eating like a bodybuilder and training like a powerlifter/strongman will only help you. If you want to prepare for a bodybuilding contest, there is no reason to change the way you train, just beware that you won’t be at 100% strength when your body fat gets freakishly low. It’s all about the diet. I “easily” transitioned to strongman because it was the PERFECT excuse to get fat and strong. So I did. In the long run, it did not help me.

I’ve become rather infamous for this phrase, but I will own it:

Using the strength as a security blanket to have a gut isn’t only unnecessary, it is unhealthy. People making a (legitimate) living off of being strong (or trying)? Fine. These men are in the dozens.

Before I forget, everyone always wants to know how tall everyone is.  I’ve no idea why.  As I know they’ll all be dying to know, how tall are you?

I am in the 5’10-5’11 range. Depends on whether or not I do heavy yoke walks the week before.

How would you recommend that an average trainee train to best prepare him or herself for any or all of those sports?

Train to be strong and healthy. Use rational, progressive overload with adequate fatigue management. If you get strong and eat correctly, the muscles will come. I think powerlifting year round for the strongman (with tweaks as necessary) and training events only some weeks before a contest is the best way to increase longevity and overall workload throughout the year.
You’ll build as big of a muscular base as any from powerlifting. If one decides to transition to bodybuilding from a strength sport you are at an even bigger hypertrophic advantage. If you start strong, then your higher rep work sets will be at a heavier weight than a person who has trained for hypertrophy only. Repping 405 will elicit more growth than repping 315.
Any well known cookie cutter strength program will work, the problem is just sticking to it. People try to outsmart themselves and just program in circles, never getting anywhere. If you tweak something it is no longer the original program.

Some pundits are crediting a return of power building with the rise in crossover athletes. I’ve always insisted everyone train to have great all-round strength and never be fat, which I suppose is power building. What’s your take on this trend and that approach?

Not only is staying lean sexier, it is healthier. I aim to keep this trend going full-steam ahead. I am REALLY trying to force a paradigm shift in strength sports and body fat levels. If you don’t care how you look or feel that is one thing (or, as previously stated, if you make your living being strong), but purposefully sacrificing health in order to add a few pounds to a bench press is silly for the weekend warrior. I just can’t see a reason for a strength athlete to NOT eat for muscle mass and fat loss. I am not saying everyone has to walk around carrying abdominal veins, but if you are so massively fat it impedes everyday function (but helps your squat leverages) you may want to reconsider your lifestyle choices.

What are your general diet recommendations for the average trainee? Does the diet change much from sport to sport?

Generally, I don’t think the type of diet has to be different between sports. You either eat to build lean mass, or you don’t. Powerlifters and other strength athletes will need less overall caloric load (likely from carbohydrate) in order to facilitate progress because they just don’t burn as many calories in (or out) of the gym. On the same token, I don’t think intra-workout nutrition is as important for the strength only athlete due to the exercise load. To me, the low volume workouts don’t justify extra intra-workout calories. Although it certainly won’t hurt.

So long as your protein and fat requirements are met then filling in the rest of your energy gap to achieve a surplus is really up to you, I just choose carbohydrate because there is a greater pharmacological value compared to fat or protein.
Everyone is different, and there is more than one way to skin a cat. There are many “advanced” nutritional guidelines some people follow, and they may work, which is great! However, I am not convinced they work any better than keeping your diet simple stupid. If you are implementing more “advanced” nutritional principles but still making gains the same as a person eating a moderate diet, then you are unnecessarily complicating your life, this will be almost 100% of the time.

For the most part, there is a reason why most all the best athletes (strength or otherwise) and bodybuilders in the world eat a balanced diet. Present company excluded, of course.

Ah, that made me smile.  My diet is balanced as hell- 50% fat and 50% protein, bro!  Anyway, that was awesome and interesting.  If people have more questions, how can they get in touch with you?

I can be contacted through my website: www.trevorkashey.com
My facebook is also totally public: www.facebook.com/trevor.kashey

Trevor also has a badass food blog with some seriously cool recipes (like almost no carb waffles) here http://throwaneggonit.blogspot.com/

So there’s something to tide you over as I continue to pound away at the data for the third and final portion of Powerlifting Is Not A Fucking Fun Run series, which should be out early this week, followed by a new Baddest Motherfuckers article, a Keto recipes article, and an article about the training methods of elite armwrestlers like Alexey Voevoda.